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Episode 13: Career Nation show with Don MacLennan

Security is interesting in many ways as it is absolutely necessary for any company, especially companies that are becoming more digital, go undergoing a digital transformation, says Don MacLennan in episode 13 of Career Nation Show.

Here are some highlights from this episode:

Don MacLennan is the SVP of Engineering & Product at Barracuda. And he shares great perspectives on the Tech landscape and shares amazing career advice.
Here are some highlights from this episode:

+ How to develop customer-centricity and customer empathy

+ How subscription business model shift is happening in tech

+ How to find great mentors and be a great mentor

+ How to build and develop skills

+ How security careers are evolving

Career Nation:
Career Nation, welcome back to the Career Nation show. Today, it is a very, very special guest. Today we have SVP of Engineering & Product at Barracuda, Don MacLennan. Don, welcome to the show.

Don MacLennan:
Thanks, Abhijeet. I’m really happy to be here and I’m hyper caffeinated.

Career Nation:
That’s awesome. So am I. So let’s dive into this. This is going to be a super intense session. Don, why don’t you fill us in a little bit about yourself? Sort of your background and your current role at Barracuda.

Don MacLennan:
Sure, yeah. Gosh, I’ve been in the software industry from right out of college, which is over 30 years ago. I would say the simple version of my career is two chapters. The first half of my career was in field operations. So I started in sales, carried a quota for many years. Going into sales management, business development alliances, channels, and so forth. That was about the first 15 years of my career. And a while I was working for a tiny little startup in Boston, I got tapped on the shoulder to move out of sales and into marketing, which at the time felt like kind of a form of failure. But really it was the opening of a door for me. And, that’s informed everything I’ve done since because I soon took over marketing for the startup and product management. Product management has been a common denominator in everything I’ve done since for the last 15 years. And in the more recent past, I’ve had responsibility for leading engineering organizations. For example, I was a startup founder and CEO. And the last couple of roles I’ve led large engineering organizations for established companies like McAfee and now Barracuda networks.

Career Nation:
Oh, that’s wonderful. I love that varied, you know, experience because you’ve gone from sales, marketing, product management channels, entrepreneurship, and now product and engineering. You’re basically seen the whole gamut. That’s fascinating. And I think, in fact it’s probably adds a lot of strengths to your skill set, right? It seems like you’ve been always developing and building on top of your skill set, which is pretty phenomenal.

Don
Well, I appreciate the compliment. I mean, the cynic would say I’m just professionally restless. But, yeah, I do find myself drawing on all these past experiences, these diverse experiences, in the role that I play at my current job, but really all of them.

Career Nation:
Fantastic. Yeah. And Don, you had mentioned you’ve been in software since the start of your career. And, now we are in the world of software where software is delivered as a service SaaS, right? And Cloud. And are we, in your opinion, sort of still sort of early in the innings for SaaS or are we at peak SaaS? What’s your perspective on this?

Don MacLennan:
Probably closer to early headings than peak SaaS, for sure. You know, cause there’s really two transformations that are happening simultaneously and, or maybe a decade of 15 years in, but just getting started. So transformation number one is the form factor, right? By which software is delivered. So it used to be the case that you would install software, you’d put it on your laptop, you’d install it in infrastructure, in a data center. You’d put stuff in your network. In fact, the history of Barracuda is we started as a company where the appliance as a physical form factor was how you bought our product. You might remember us as the airport signage people, right? We were advertising these pieces of equipment that you could buy and so we’ve completely transformed our business as many software companies have where the form factor is no longer installed software or an appliance, it’s running cloud native.
Everything we build from here forward is deployed into public cloud infrastructure. So that’s a massive technology transformation. But the other transformation that’s happening exactly in parallel in lockstep is the business model transformation. You know when I started it was all about selling perpetual software. And each year you might charge 15 or 20% for something called maintenance, which entitled you to bug fixes, product updates, tech support, and the like. That tended to be a very predictable revenue stream. These days, of course with SaaS, the business model has transformed as well into annual subscriptions and code. So customers have a decision point every single year. And in some cases every single month whereby they get to decide. Do I still want to keep this software? Do I still want to invest in the next subscription term? You know, I love, for example, a lot of the thought leadership that’s come out of Zuora in this regard, right? Defining the subscription economy. And so when you ask about are we in the early innings of cloud and SaaS as it relates to this concept of the subscription economy, ah, we’re in an incredibly early innings cause think of all the places that’s yet to arrive.


Careernation:
I mean, you’re absolutely right because, you painted an amazing picture of how the subscription shift has happened in tech, especially in the form factor business model. And you’re absolutely right. I mean, there’s so many other industries where the subscription model is starting to take shape. We see that in media. Disney’s going subscription and we see that in so many other consumer. Our products as well. So you’re absolutely right on. One of the things that sort of comes out of that as you look at SaaS is, you know, in addition to sort of the business model shift is sort of how do we add value to customers continually. And you mentioned that, you know, customers have a choice at the end of the subscription term. They could choose to not renew or renew and companies have to keep adding value to customers. And what’s been your sort of, work around, you know, being customer centric? And I’ve known you for some time and you’ve always been customer centric. You are so focused on understanding what the customer is looking for, and the sort of the articulated and the inarticulate needs of the customer, et cetera. How do we become more customer centric as a person? As a company? Is that like, should we run more surveys? Should we go talk to customers? What’s your perspective on this?


Don MacLennan:
Yeah. Well I think that, those formative years of my career out in the field in front of customers every day having delivered or been part of hundreds of demos, right? You start to get this innate sense of the value of that feedback? I like to think about customer centricity more in terms of customer empathy. So the word I’m using these days is empathy, not centricity because empathy kind of denotes something a little different, you know, maybe a deeper level of understanding. And when I think about what is the approach you take towards developing customer empathy? I think you have to kind of think about it in micro and macro terms. Macro terms would be, Hey, what are these patterns that described your customer base as a whole, right? Micro terms, meaning can I really understand how an individual user of my product does their daily work? And in doing their daily work, what does success look like for them in the job? Don MacLennan: (07:10)
Like how is their boss going to give them a great performance rating and a pay rise if not a promotion at the end of the year. And if I work back from that level of empathy, meaning how are they measuring success in their job, I can start to understand that role my software product plays in helping them achieve it. Sometimes it’s the case, they’re gonna spend, you know, minutes and hours using my product and the given day. It’s so critical to the role. And in some cases, more often than not, my product is a tool for them to get something done, but in the least amount of time possible because they’re busy and they’ve got other stuff to do. Bless you. So the path, in my opinion, to developing customer empathy is to really think of ourselves as carpenters. And good carpenters have tool belts. And carpenters have tool belts where they carry around a lot of tools, right?


CareerNation:
Oh, there’s so many nuggets there Don. That was phenomenal because I, I think the way you describe it was also sort of you’ve got this great tool set and in your tool belt and then you can use the tools that you want. And I love that example of sort of follow the customer where you have a team of people just go in and see what the customer’s doing because so much of that what the customer does is not just with your particular app or your particular technology, but it’s sort of other things and it’s sort of also the context in which the customer does that work. Because the customer might be trying to solve an internal company problem, an external customer problem or you know, trying to gain more process efficiency or what have you, right? So that context becomes super important. So what we’re now doing is we’re taking in a user experience designer and a buddy. And the buddy is often somebody from the engineering team. And we’re asking to go observe a customer as they work in their cube or office for two or three hours, hours at a time. And not even ask them any questions until the end. Just watch them do job. The job, not using our product, but the job. And it’s amazing the kinds of insights you get when you’re in their workplace. Just watching, you start to understand the role of your product in ways you couldn’t have known through these other techniques. So yet another tool. All of it together gives you kind of that maximum context and leads to understanding the customer and empathetic terms.

Career Nation:
Yeah. I love that. And I think you’re so right about failure. And actually, thankfully in Silicon Valley at least we have a culture that celebrates failure a lot of times, which is great. And that actually is very helpful for companies that are trying to innovate, break glass and move forward quickly. And having that inclusiveness for failure is super helpful. Do you have any advice for, executives, managers who are, who would like to encourage their team to innovate? And at the same time there might be a little bit of them failing. And how do you, how can one develop an appetite for a certain level of failure while as we go through our innovation cycles?


Don MacLennan:
Yup. Yup. I have Terry Hicks to thank at McAfee, my former boss, for really bringing this message home. You know, we were doing it before he arrived at McAfee in my tenure. But we probably weren’t doing it at the scale that he encouraged us to do it. And I think it brought all the other disciplines because we were getting really good at quantitative analytics of our products usage. They brought in another dimension to, understanding it. So, I’m a believer.

Career Nation:
That’s awesome. And that’s great because you’re doing all the quant work with analytics and you’re doing the qualitative work and put those together. You got art and the science.
Oh, you got us. You got it.
That’s wonderful. And Don, you’ve been in the security business for some time. And you’re currently leading product and engineering for a major security company. Security is interesting in many ways because in some ways it’s absolutely necessary for any company, especially companies that are becoming more digital, go undergoing digital transformation. They need security, right? And, you know, on one hand, security is required. Most companies have many security products that they buy. And on the other hand, if you look at the talent for security, there is a lot of demand and not enough supply of top talent and so security has been one of the, and based on just feedback that I get in the field is people want to get into the security domain. They want to build a career in security. And if today, let’s say they’re not doing security, but they are generally in tech, what should they look at to get into the security domain? What should be their approach? What you recommend?

Don MacLennan:
Yup. Well, I think the sad fact is the bad guys keep winning and it’s perpetuating the growth of our industry. So, yeah, it is a tremendous career opportunity because security is not going away. And as all things get more digitized, right? Security considerations, just keep on arriving in new ways. I’ll give you a crazy example. We’ve got customers now that are putting all sorts of IOT devices out into the wild, right? Smart everything, smart meters, smart light poles. We’re starting to deploy firewalls, physical firewalls into these devices in little tiny boxes that are, you know, six square inches, 12 square inches. So yeah, I mean security is kind of becoming woven into the fabric of a lot of physical devices beyond what we think about as traditional security, right around networks and applications. So it is the case. It’s a very, very vibrant industry.
It continues to grow because the bad guys are really smart, sadly. And you know, in some respects they keep winning. So, you know, the question about how do you get into the industry, I think there’s times when the domain expertise can be a little bit overstated. You know, if we look to hire a developer, for example, to build a product, they don’t get screened on the basis of whether or not they know the security domain. First and foremost, we’re looking for great developers. And, the security domain is knowable, right? It’s a craft that can be taught. There’s a lot of other attributes about being a great employee, whether you’re a developer or otherwise that are, that can’t be easily be taught, right? There’s these inequalities about you as a person that make you a great team member, that you know, relate to your growth mindset and so on and so forth.
I always look for that and deemphasize the domain expertise given my druthers in terms of, you know, the ranked order of criteria by which to bring somebody into the company. That said, if you’re looking to understand the domain, there’s some really, really good and mature and robust, frameworks out there as it relates to security best practice. So that’s really well understood. There’s a professional certification, called CISSP that’s got a ton of foundational concepts around security. And still very relevant today. There’s a lot of best practice frameworks out there. Cloud Security Alliance has published frameworks. There’s the SSA 16 frameworks, SOC2 Type 1, SOC2 Type 2. You can learn what’s inside of those. They’re basically controls frameworks. There’s ISO 27001 and 27002, which is kind of the mother of all best practice frameworks. There’s the MIT… Sorry, the MITRE att&ck model, which sort of documents how the bad guys can infiltrate on infrastructure and exfiltrate valuable data, right? So all these frameworks are pretty easily understood in sense if you want to put the time into studying them, you can learn the domain.

Career Nation:
That’s so important to learn those frameworks and whether it’s a DDOS attack or some other types of attacks from the bad guys, quite frankly, these types of frameworks would be super useful. So thank you for sharing that because a lot of times people try to figure out and once they sort of know these type of framers, they can get a path towards getting into a security career. And you’re absolutely right. It’s the sort of the whole stack of skills and quite frankly, sort of experience and competencies that are required to become a great professional, not just a security professional. And, you know, one of the things I’ve observed about you, and you’ve talked about that on your blog and in events is this topic of sort of mentorship. And you’ve mentored a ton of people over the years and, do you know one of the questions that people have is like, you know,, how do we get mentors? Like, is there like a signup form somewhere? Should I just barge into your office and say, Hey, can you please be my mentor? Is it like going out on a date? Like what is mentorship? And like how do I sort of get great mentors?


Don MacLennan:
Yeah, yeah, great question. Um, I had, I think I told this story in your presence a few weeks ago where, uh, I was at an eternal conference when I was at McAfee earlier this year. And, um, somebody came up to me, um, probably after I spoke in the panel or something, this young woman came up to me and said, Hey, Don, I really enjoyed your talk and what you have to say. Will you be my mentor? And it was kind of awkward, right? Cause I didn’t otherwise have a relationship with her. Um, but obviously I understood the, her intent, right? She was very hungry and eager to learn. Um, I’ll give a couple of practical suggestions. First is I wouldn’t, um, think of your boss as your mentor, right? Your boss can be an incredibly important person in your professional development, including giving feedback. But there are things that your boss just won’t say or know about you because you’re not going to necessarily reveal your total self to your boss.

Don MacLennan:
There’s a power structure there. And uh, and it has an effect on, uh, the employee, you know, manager dynamic. So mentors can come from elsewhere in company, especially larger companies, right? Because you want a little bit of distance and you want that distance because as a mentee, you want to be vulnerable and you want to be comfortable and you want to be trusting of that individual because the best mentorship relationships are the ones where you’re revealing yourself so as to be able to get that kind of feedback and understanding of return. So if you’re going to find a mentor inside your own company, um, make sure that they’re distant enough from the work you do, that what you say to them, right? Can’t necessarily affect your day to day work. And a good sense, even better mentors are the ones that are not inside your company at all.

Don MacLennan:
So practical suggestion would be think about your former bosses, right? They’re often really good mentors for two reasons, one of which is they come to know you in the workplace. So they’re a source of really good feedback because they do know you and second is you’re not working for them anymore. And so the ability to go be vulnerable and the ability to establish that next level of trust, right? There’s not, there’s no downside to it in the way that you might experience that with somebody that is at your current company. So former bosses in my experience are great mentors. I’ve got two or three mentors that are exactly that, and another one who didn’t come to me that way, but started with a more formal professional relationship and it evolved into mentorship. So maybe that’s my last point. I budget, which is, um, mentors are so seldom the way you start a relationship. It’s an evolution of a relationship that begins on some other basis, whether it’s a boss or a friend and in time can develop into mentorship. And I think that’s an important concept. You can’t kind of rush it or force it.

Career Nation:
Oh, that’s a great, uh, that’s a great way to get into mentorship. Like it could be a boss, it could be a colleague, it can be a friend, and over a period of time that person becomes a mentor. Um, I love that concept and uh, that’s something that quite frankly, I would love to practice as well because I’ve got some former bosses who I ping from time to time. I’d love to, uh, you know, have an ongoing relationship and hopefully they get something out of that relationship as well because it’s not just the mentee, but the mentor also probably gets something out of it. They get to learn a few new things as well.

Career Nation:
Great. Don, this is the part where we shift gears a little bit and we get to know our guest a little bit better. Are you ready for our Favorites Game?

Don MacLennan:
I hope so.

Career Nation:
Good. Well let’s start with this. Let’s start with your favorite app.

Don MacLennan:
Oh man. You know, anyone asks me a favorite, I almost never will give them one answer. You know, it’s like, do you remember the movie High Fidelity? It was about this guy who was like… Yeah, John Cusak… And he owned a record store and he was obsessed with music and then, you know, they would spend all day developing top five lists. And he would never give you the top five records of all time. You’d have to ask the context, right? Like, well, is it, you know, am I at home or I’m on vacation or am I with a girl. And so, you know, I’m going to give you one of those qualified answers. You know, I love Facebook, the app. I don’t love everything about Facebook, the business model, but I love the app. So let me explain it. Somebody at this stage in my career, I’ve come to know a lot of people all around the world.

Don MacLennan:
In my professional life, traveled extensively, worked for multinational companies. I love the fact that I can still maintain a sense of connection to those people through Facebook because otherwise I really don’t know how I would be able to achieve that, right? In practical terms, I can’t call every friend every two or three months to tell them what’s going on in my life. And so that app really does make me feel connected to friends that are in Israel, in the Czech Republic, where I once lived. And people I’ve met in Japan, people in Australia, Canada, you know. It’s really cool for that purpose. Sometimes I have to hold my nose in terms of understanding the business model and some of their other practices. But I do love the app and I’m a regular user of it despite all of those reasons. Slack in the workplace.

Don MacLennan:
I brought Slack to my organization when I was at McAfee. When I showed up at Barracuda a few months ago, I realized that they were heavy users of Slack. So that was a big, happy moment for me. Because it does what it does really really well. Yeah. I think the common theme for me in terms of things I love is app is simplicity, right? You know, they do just enough but not too much. And I think Slack is a good example of that because when you kind of pull that thread of collaboration, you can end up with really complicated applications with a bunch of features that just aren’t useful. They might exist in Slack, but they don’t force themselves on you. You can discover them and activate them. But if you want to use Slack in its most simplest way, right around just messaging, you can do that.

Career Nation:
And you’re right. I mean, even this normal user, if you will, gets a lot of value, not just the power user. So that’s phenomenal. Thank you for sharing that.

Johanna Lyman:
Yes. I actually had one that was on my wall for 10 years before I figured out what it really meant. “I’ve been absolutely terrified every day of my life, but I’ve never let it stop me from doing a single thing” by Georgia O’Keeffe.

Don MacLennan:
I got one last one for you. This is more a place for me nerding out in my personal life. There’s an app called Plane Finder 3D. So where I live in Silicon Valley, a lot of planes go overhead as they’re making their final approach to San Francisco airport. And I’m kind of a plane nerd. I dunno why I like to travel. I’m interested in airplanes. And so when they fly overhead my house, I’ve gotten kind of used to trying to spot what they are like, what, what flight is it, where’s it coming from, what model. And this plane finder app called Plane Finder 3D. It’s literally a 3D representation of that plane on its flight path. So you can kind of see the glide slope and how it descends and when it makes a turn, it’s unbelievable that if 3d application can even function on an, you know, a smartphone, it’s a really cool app.

Career Nation:
Oh, that’s phenomenal. Maybe we can also use that to track the 787 Max Boeing planes.

Don MacLennan:
Yeah, yeah. As in when they might get in the air again.

Career Nation:
Exactly. Don, thank you for sharing that. That was fascinating, especially with the plane part. do you have a favorite quote that you either put up in your office or use or you’d like to see on a billboard somewhere on maybe Highway 101?

Don MacLennan:
Gosh, here’s another one. Like I don’t have a single favorite quote. Maybe the one that comes to mind is, ‘continuous improvement beats delayed perfection’. You know, I often had, have in my organization, you know, some big monumental challenge that we’re trying to overcome. And the first thing I tried to encourage my organization to do is deconstruct the problem, right? What is it that we can do? And 10 successive steps to ultimately find a solution as opposed to trying to figure out how to solve the whole thing at once. Because it’s almost never available to you as a solution. So you’ve got to deconstruct it into some journey. And a lot of times it actually means you’re recognizing the fact that it’s gonna take a little while to deliver that capability. People get infatuated, right? With the idea like, ‘Hey, we only just surged on this, and a month time we’d have this amazing capability’. It’s almost never the case, right? Almost always great capabilities in the form of products take a long time to develop. And so I try to help people understand how you can deconstruct that, maybe do kind of a work back and know that I take 10 discreet steps to actually build that capability.

Career Nation:
I like that Don. Because it not only makes it easier to do bigger things, but it also is sort of creates this compounding effect over time if you’re continuously improving even a little bit every day, your compounding result is much much higher.

Don MacLennan:
That’s the key. You keep at it for a few months or even a year, and those small incremental improvements when you look back in the rear view mirror, like, Holy smokes, things have really changed and it’s hard to sense in the moment. But yeah, that’s almost always the way that I’ve been able to deliver transformative capabilities is exactly that approach.

Career Nation:
Awesome. That’s brilliant. I’m going to, I’m going to probably pinch that in a future meeting.

Don MacLennan:
No worries.

Career Nation:
Don, do you have a favorite book?

Don MacLennan:
Yeah, I guess one of the most, impactful books, in terms of thinking about my career and being a leader, started with a keynote that I saw many, many years ago. I was at an internal leadership kickoff meeting when I was working for RSA security. It was a division of EMC at the time. And there was a keynote speaker, a guy named Marcus Buckingham. And he came on stage and, he’s a really really good public speaker and he basically said, ‘Look, I’m here to tell you that the entire human industry, or the human resources industry is built on a mountain of BS’. So everybody kind of like leaned back and said, ‘Okay, what do you mean by that?’ Because we had some great human resources leaders in the audience. And he goes, ‘the HR industry is built on a false premise, which is that by giving feedback to employees about the ways in which they’re supposed to improve, we’re basically setting them up for failure.

Don MacLennan:
Because if there’s something they don’t know how to do, they’re probably never really going to learn how to do it’. He said, it’s like a conspiracy where we’re just creating these negative reinforcement loops around people. And he said, I’ve done 20 years worth of research into the topic of what makes high performing teams perform well. And the basic findings of this very robust research were twofold. First of which is in every high performing team, every person on the team, is playing a role designed to their strengths. So that all of these innate talents and capabilities they have, that’s the job. They can feel joy, they can feel mastery, and they’re not required to do stuff they don’t actually know how to do. And the other secret ingredient of a very high performing team is that the manager, whether explicitly or implicitly new that that’s how they were supposed to design the team.

Don MacLennan:
That by having all these actors playing highly complimentary roles, that the team could cover all the functional requirements that the team owned, right? But it may be a diverse array of individuals each playing to his or her strengths. And so he went on to write a series of books about this one was called First Break All the Rules. The next was called Now Discover Your Strengths. That just clicked for me. Because I started thinking about my job as a leader and that was to constantly try to discover my teams, innate strengths and constantly try to evolve their role towards one where they only get to play to their strengths. And I’ve never put them in a position of having to do stuff they’re not capable of mastering. So it was a really influential book and talk. Actually I saw the talk first, then I read the books and that was, coming on to 14 years ago.

Career Nation:
Yeah. I mean, Marcus has created an amazing body of work around this and thank you for sharing that. I will make sure that we put that down in the show notes because that’s an amazing resource for anybody to get their hands on. Especially how to find your strengths, et cetera. That’s just invaluable as individuals, as teams, as we formed teams too. Yeah, it is a great work.

Don MacLennan:
One of the ways I apply that before we move on is… So I’ve done these assessments. Every time I have a new member to my team or I show up into a new team, I give them that information. I hand it out. In fact, I went further and I wrote something called The User Guide to Don, which is about a two page document that’s kind of a synthesis of, you know, all of my forms of self awareness and just kind of put myself out there and say, Hey, do you want to get to know me? You know, here’s the road-map. And a lot of it was derived from, some of the assessments that I took, you know, from his books and his body of work.

Career Nation:
Oh, that’s wonderful. And I’m not just do sort of double click on that a little bit.

(28:41)
Have you, have you seen more success in terms of getting more self aware through sort of electronic tools that sort of have the survey based sort of questionnaire and, or have you seen sort of better results through sort of in-person when you actually go sit down with someone and say, ‘Hey, can you share insights about me? Don’t worry about any repercussions. This is sort of a neutral zone. Just give it to me so that I can improve as a individual, as a person, as a professional’. What’s been sort of your go to tool and which one do you prefer?

Don MacLennan: ell, I’ve used both. I definitely rely on these tools where I find value in the assessment. Because there isn’t that vulnerability on the table. You know, sometimes to your point, having that face to face conversation where your soliciting feedback about yourself from somebody else. I can put them in a very uncomfortable position because they may have the feedback to give to you. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re comfortable giving it. And you know, it comes from the right place in their heart, which is to say, Hey, I don’t want to say something that’s going to hurt this person’s feelings or harm them in any way. Right? So it’s a barrier and it can take time to develop enough trust that someone’s going to share with you that authentic feedback. So, when it happens, it’s magical. I tend to use these tools in addition to try to develop some baseline of self-awareness. I really like a 360 feedback. Because it’s an anonymous process and if you get, you know, 15 or 18 responses from higher ups and subordinates and peer relationships, that collection of feedback tends to reveal some pattern about you, that you might not have known before. So yeah, there’s a time and a place for the tools to the extent you’d get somebody giving you that, you know, face to face authentic feedback, even better, kind of hard to come by in my opinion.

Career Nation:
Awesome. Thanks Don. And shifting to the next question on favorites, what’s your favorite restaurant?

Don MacLennan:
Oh man. I keep going to act to a place called Orens Hummus Shop. There’s a few of them. The original is on University Avenue Palo Alto. There’s another one down in mountain view. I’ve seen a couple of others pop up. I love middle Eastern food and some of the most memorable meals I’ve ever had was when I was traveling to Israel pretty regularly. And hummus and pita bread in Israel is quite different than here. And so Orens is founded by an Israeli ex-pat. And so just, in addition to loving the food, it created for me kind of a connection to these really fond memories of times I traveled in Israel. Food’s really good too.

Career Nation:
Fascinating. Well, we’ll drop a few links there in the notes as well. We’ll probably drive some traffic up to that restaurant.

Don MacLennan:
I have no financial relationship to that. Oh, I guess I do; I’m a paying customer.

Career Nation:
You’re a paying customer, for sure. Don, why don’t we get back to our topic on careers and if you can share some of the Don secret sauce. And what I mean by that is like what are some techniques that you use, on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, quarterly basis when you are doing certain things that you think, you know, you’re, it’s unique to you, you’re, you’re really good at it and I think it would be helpful to share with the audience. Let me just give you some examples. For example, do you have a, do you prepare for big meetings in a certain way or do you have a morning routine or you know, things like that. What would you like to share with the audience?

Don MacLennan:
Yeah, yeah. Actually, preparing for big meetings is a good one. I got some really specific training and mentorship, earlier in my career from a guy named Marcus Oskie who is my a manager at the time. And he described to me as all methodology for trying to arrive at an important decision because most meetings are some meetings at least are about taking a decision. And, it was really helpful the way I described it. Because I said, ‘Look, if you’re going to convene a meeting to take a decision, then that meeting is itself a ceremony’. In other words, you should actually know in advance what the decision is and who’s going to support it and the fact that you have consensus or a majority or whatever. Right? So it’s just a place to formalize a decision that you’ve already worked to create. And they worked back from that and said, okay, well what would need to be true in order for it just to be ceremonial?

Don MacLennan:
Well, you probably have to engage with every single constituent who’s going to be in that meeting. In fact, you might even have to engage with people who are going to inform the point of view of those constituents. Right? And he kind of worked back from that for the whole process of laying the groundwork of how you even get to a consensus space decision. And he sort of helped me understand that. You know, that meeting might be 20 conversations leading up to it in order to be sufficiently prepared. Where I get the outcome I’m expecting or wanting, right? Which is a yes to some, you know, decision I’m advocating for really enlightening.

Career Nation:
Oh, that’s great. And I think that helps, especially when the company is of a certain size and also sort of, I don’t want to say consensus based culture, but at least getting everybody’s viewpoints on the table to actually make a decision to move forward. And that approach is so incredibly valuable because you make sure that you hear every piece of feedback, you bake that feedback into your proposal and that way you’re not only addressing everybody’s concerns or you know, viewpoints, what have you. But you’re actually making a better decision. And, that’s phenomenal. Thank you for sharing that approach.

Don MacLennan:
You’re welcome. You know, to your point though, at the time we were working at a 60 person startup together. So his approach was highly applicable to that environment. You know, I’ve worked for much larger companies at other times in my career where I’d also say it’s got, you know, usefulness, maybe even higher utility. But it was a pretty small company where I watched him do this and he was really effective at it. SoI’m kinda believe that it probably has applicability to any environment in which you work.

Career Nation:
I like it. And it sounds like it’s more collaborative as well. You basically get everybody’s inputs into the process.

Don MacLennan:
That’s right.

Career Nation:
Outstanding. I love that. as we wrap up here, Don, again, thank you so much for your time. Any parting thoughts, parting words of wisdom that you’d like to share with Career Nation? Because we have folks in our audience across the spectrum. We have early in career, later in career, in the middle of their career journey. And mostly are in tech, although there are some non tech folks as well. So anything that you’d like to share as we wrap up?

Don MacLennan:
Yeah. You know, a few parting thoughts. You know, the first of which is you own your career. You know, I’ve often encountered situations in my role as a leader where people look to me to tell them what their career should be. And my response is, you own your career, right? In other words, you own the understanding of where it is you want to go and you’ve gotta be able to articulate it. My job as a leader is to do what I can to enable that to become true. And so I’ll do it through a variety of techniques, you know, including, but not limited to mentorship, right? But, it’s not something you can outsource. You’ve got to have your own sense of purpose and needs and wants. It can take time. You know, some people earlier in their career don’t have a sense of what that looks like and that’s fine.

Don MacLennan:
It’s a job, not a career at that point. Some people have a very clear sense of purpose very early. And of course all of us may go through career transitions from time to time where we start, what we started doing, we don’t want to do anymore. And we’re kind of looking for something else, a pivot point. So I think you’ve got to have that sense of ownership over your career. The folks that I’ve seen succeed, you know, often have a couple of characteristics, you know. The label we put to it as sometimes growth mindset. If I was to double click, I think it takes on a couple of specific behaviors, you know, the first of which is self directed learning, right? Not being told what you need to know, but actually initiating that learning for yourself. I’ll give you a good example because, at one point in my career I began using this as a basis of how to hire people.

Don MacLennan: (36:53)
So we were, I was in the Czech Republic working for a company there. We were trying to hire a new design leader. And we were testing candidates for self directed learning, right? As we were interviewing and we’re asking for examples. So I asked this individual and said, ‘So tell me what you’ve been learning about lately, for the sake of your own professional advancement’. And he said, ‘Oh, well, I’m honoring a finance course right now’. And I’m like, okay, that’s interesting. You’re a design leader. Why are you auditing a finance course? And they said, well, I’m really trying to understand how to speak to executives about the financial value of what my organization does. I want to develop the vocabulary so I can tell them the financial benefit. I’m like, Whoa, that’s a really good answer. And he goes, Oh, I have one more example.

Don MacLennan: (37:35)
I said, okay, what’s that? And he goes, I’m studying ergonomics and physiology. And I’m like, why are you studying ergonomics and physiology? He’s like, well, you know, if I designed a user interface, it’s an interface to a computer. But then there’s a mouse and that mouse is connected to an arm and the arm is connected to a body. So if I really want to know what usability looks like, I have to understand the body that’s using the mouse it’s using the computer. And I was like, Oh my God, I’m blown away by these answers. I love you. And we ended up hiring years by the way, no accident. Right? So that self directed learning really really a key marker for advancement. And the other is global mindset. In other words, somebody who is curious to understand the world around them and appreciates, if not embraces the idea that, you know, from all of this diversity comes different viewpoints.

Don MacLennan: (38:18)
And that’s something to celebrate. That’s something to take into account as you do your work as opposed to kind of only looking for people that are like you. So when I hire, I look for people who have, you know, purposely sought out adventure, maybe lived abroad, studied abroad, worked for multinational companies, traveled. All these are markers for people who are able to pull the best rate from that diversity. That is, you know, the human construct. And I think if you pursue kind of those two patterns, you’re going to find yourself investing in your career, whether you call it your career blueprint or not.

Career Nation: (38:54)
Don, what a great way to wrap up this episode. Self-learning, diversity and being open to diverse thoughts. It’s so important for all of us to do that. And thank you for sharing your wisdom. This has been an incredible episode. And, I thank you again for your time. I know you’re a super busy guy and I appreciate all the wonderful wisdom and not only that, but also candor that goes along with that. Thank you Don so much, and you have great rest of the day.

Don MacLennan: (39:25)
Thanks, Abhijeet. Glad for the opportunity.

Career Nation: (39:28)
Take care.

Don MacLennan: (39:29)
Bye.

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Episode 12: Career Nation Show with Johanna Lyman

“Once you find your center, everything becomes quiet. Then you can start observing life unfolding as a rotating pattern around you”, says Maria Kellis, in Episode 11 of Career Nation show.

“The number one indicator of success is the degree of self-awareness and emotional intelligence a person has. Now 85% of people think they’re emotionally intelligent and only 10-15% actually are. So, it’s never too early to become more self-aware. It’s also never too late”, says Johanna Lyman, in Episode 12 of Career Nation show.

Johanna Lyman is a professional speaker, business consultant, entrepreneur, and author. She is a business coach at NexGen Orgs and the president of the Bay Area Chapter of Conscious Capitalism.

In this video, she explains how to become successful by handling failures effectively and shares insights about life, success, failure, wisdom, and career.

Here are some highlights from this episode:

  • How to develop your business?
  • Why emotional intelligence is critical?
  • How to innovate and scale your business faster?
  • Why business should be conscious of their capitalistic tendencies?
  • How to handle failure – at a leam level as well as at an individual level?
  • What is ‘that’ combination of success?
  • What is Pattern Matching, and why is it important?

Career Nation:
Hey Career Nation, welcome back to the show. And today we have a phenomenal guest. She is an author, she’s a business coach at NexGen Orgs. And she’s the president of the Bay Area Chapter of Conscious Capitalism. Please welcome Johanna Lyman to the show. Johanna, welcome to the show.

Johanna Lyman:
Thank you, Abhijeet. Happy to be here.

Career Nation:
This is great. And, you know, you and I have been planning this for a while, so this is super exciting for me. Johanna, why don’t you give us a little bit about yourself and your role in this various organizations?

Johanna Lyman:
Sure. So NextGen Orgs is my company. I founded it in its early version founded it 16 years ago this month. It’s gone through a couple of iterations and it’s been about 40 years that it’s been NextGen Orgs. And we help companies have sustainable profitability and build highly cohesive and productive teams. And then as the board president of Conscious Capitalism, a role that I’ve been in for about six months now, I’ve been involved in the organization for a couple of years. Maybe almost three. And, so Conscious Capitalism is about unleashing the heroic spirit of business. So it’s about business as a force for good in the world, which aligns very much with the work that we do at NexGen Orgs.

Career Nation:
Oh, I love the synergies there. Because on one hand you’re helping businesses as part of NextGen Orgs. And on the other hand, you are working, with Conscious Capitalism to help business and be a force for good. So there’s a lot of intersections there. So why don’t we dive into this a little bit more? What does NextGen Orgs do? Do you guys help startups, established companies and sort of how do you help them?

Johanna Lyman:
Yup. So we work with companies – small, fast growing companies, privately held and we do, there’s four basic things that we do with them. First, we help them understand their values and their purpose and their vision. We help them, with Conscious Communication. So emotional intelligence, how to conflict management. We also help companies actively embrace failure so that they can be wildly innovative and scale faster. And then the fourth thing that we do is we help companies become radically inclusive. And you know, there’s, there’s a strong business case for all of those things, which is why we do them. We put it together and we call it building brave cultures.

Career Nation:
Oh, that’s outstanding. And I can see a lot of companies who would love to take advantage of that because that’s an area as companies are fast growing, culture and improving, sort of teams is an area which is a lot of times overlook. And this is a really interesting area that you’re working in. And as we shift towards sort of Conscious Capitalism and businesses becoming a force for good. It is a, it is such an intriguing topic because on one hand, a lot of companies here in Silicon Valley, they’re trying to grow fast. And in that process they may not be paying attention to being more inclusive or, some of the things that we have going on locally, such as, diversity or housing or gentrification and all those type of things. And, how are you encouraging businesses to be conscious about their capitalistic tendencies? How are you influencing them?

Johanna Lyman:
That’s a great question. It has to start really at the very beginning and it has to start with being the founder or founders being mindful about their values and the values that they want the company to bring into the world. And then once they’re clear on their values, then we can come up with a purpose that is beyond profit. Profit is essential. And studies have shown that actually purpose-driven companies outperform the S&P 500 (Index) by 14 times. So it’s not just a good thing, it’s not just a nice thing to do. It’s really good for business. But then you have to not only have these values and understand what your greater purpose is, but you have to operationalize that. So how would your customers or clients see that you were living your values? See that you’re living the company’s values? How does that show up in how you do business?

Career Nation:
You know, it’s interesting you say that. Because a lot of times people in companies are compensated and incentivized in different ways because, you know, they may be incentivized on sales or product or you know, those type of things. And that includes bonuses and stock options and all of those things. And, having a purpose is great. And many companies have a great purpose and they try to move towards that, but there is also a set of companies who may have a superficial purpose. Their real purpose is to disrupt and other things. So how does that, how does Conscious Capitalism get manifested in companies where, you know, the people are incentivized differently or their purpose may be just a little bit more flimsy, if you will?

Johanna Lyman:
Right. I think that biggest thing that I’ve seen with later stage companies is they might have a purpose. They understand their values when they’re just starting. But then they hit an inflection point, they start scaling and they bring on, you know, 50 more employees and, somehow the purpose and the values gets diluted at that point, if they’re not operationalized. If they’ve got a very clear set of ‘this is how we do things’ and they onboard their new employees to understand that, then it doesn’t get diluted. But that’s such a huge problem that I see all the time.

Career Nation:
Great. And as these companies are growing and they’re trying to innovate, one of the topics you mentioned earlier who was about failure and I know that this, topic is very close to your heart and you’ve written about it online as well. You know, I’ve always struggled to understand the question about failure, whether it’s individual or at a team level. And as we see, especially in tech companies, we are always trying to innovate, push the envelope just a little bit more. And through that, a lot of times there is failure. And failure sometimes is taken as, ‘Oh, here’s something new we learned’ versus sometimes it’s like, ‘Oh, you failed’. That’s why we’re going to move on to a different project. Or you should not be working on these innovative things anymore. So it has got this double-edged, it’s a double edged sword. How do you think we should handle failure? Especially in companies at a team level, at an individual level?

Johanna Lyman:
We have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Absolutely have to. And there’s stats behind it. Something like 84% of leaders know that innovation is critical to the success of the company. But only 4% of them – this is from a McKinsey study – only 4% of them are actually doing something about it in their strategic plans. And it’s not, so it’s not because they don’t know it’s important. They just don’t know how. And I always like to say, if I could change one thing about our society, I would change the way we educate our kids because we set them up to learn at a very young age that they can’t fail more than 30% of the time. You know, that’s a C-grade, right?

Johanna Lyman:
But in reality, 80 to 90% of startups fail. Like 92% of product innovations fail. Like there is no success at all with out failure first. So, and we like to do it by… (Laughing) We teach the innovation, by playing games. Because it’s fun and people learn 10 times faster when they’re having fun. So we get them. It’s the only way to get comfortable being uncomfortable is to practice.

Career Nation:
Yeah. I love that. And I think you’re so right about failure. And actually, thankfully in Silicon Valley at least we have a culture that celebrates failure a lot of times, which is great. And that actually is very helpful for companies that are trying to innovate, break glass and move forward quickly. And having that inclusiveness for failure is super helpful. Do you have any advice for, executives, managers who are, who would like to encourage their team to innovate? And at the same time there might be a little bit of them failing. And how do you, how can one develop an appetite for a certain level of failure while as we go through our innovation cycles?

Johanna Lyman:
I think there’s a couple things that happen. First of all, they could, you know, do some sort of a team building process that actually gets people together and does like, like a ropes course or something where they get to practice things like this. And it helps to build morale. It helps to build a sense of belonging. And at the end of the day, whether they, whether you say you’ve got a culture of innovation or not, you really don’t have a culture of innovation if you’re not failing a lot, and then learning from it. So what’s the key learning here and how can, like, where’s the point of failure and how can we, like if we start there just before that, how can we do it better next time? The other thing is that, you know, the reason besides the school thing, the reason we’re so afraid of failing is because we’re afraid of getting kicked out of the tribe, right?

Johanna Lyman:
The psychological safety and belonging is so crucial. And so, and we’re hardwired to kind of sort for sameness and to keep ourselves safe, right? So we have to kind of retrain the amygdala with part of the limbic system to notice that when we fail, we don’t die. Cause the limbic system is hardwired to keep us safe and safe means alive. And the only thing it knows for sure we can survive are things that we’ve already survived. So kind of fatal flaw and the operating system there. But so I always tell my clients to like, celebrate the crap out of your failure and like say, ‘Oh my God, I just did something for the first time and I didn’t die’.

Career Nation:
That is awesome. You know that is so interesting because, it reminds me that failure is not just at the team level, could also be personal and it’s okay to fail and there’s a lot of learning there and no, you’re not going to get kicked out of the tribe and no, you’re not gonna die. And it’s gonna make you stronger and more alerted and it will help you to, quite frankly, propel in the right direction if you’re not able to open some doors. That means you’re actually, destined to open a different door, which is more success. And so have you seen any, examples or ways, to deal with personal failure. Especially in careers and especially for Career Nation where we have people who are trying different things or trying different types of jobs or domains and what have you. And they’re kind of going through their careers and trying to navigate the best they can. Anything that you can share about sort of dealing with personal failure?

Johanna Lyman:
Yes – don’t take it personally. So you have to separate the action with the Dewar. Okay. So if I’ve just, you know, been fired from a job, for example, I have to separate out like these are the actions or inactions that caused me to get fired and they’re not who I am as a human. If they are who you are as a human, then maybe it’s time to get some coaching.

Career Nation:
Yeah, that’s a great point to separate yourself from the actions because your actions don’t always represent who you are. That’s a great hack. I love it. Johannah why don’t we shift gears a little bit and learn a little bit more about you. And we’ll get into our Favorites Game, which is we ask you some favorite questions, rapid fire, and you are expected to answer them and tell us why that thing is your favorite. Johanna are you ready?

Johanna Lyman:
Ready as I’ll ever be.

Career Nation:
Awesome. Uh, why don’t we start with what is your favorite app?

Johanna Lyman:
My favorite app, this is going to sound silly, but it’s a cribbage app because I love to play cribbage and my husband doesn’t have the patience to learn how. So it’s the only way I get to play enough.

Career Nation:
Oh, very cool. That’s great. You get to keep your hobby. That’s a good thing. What is your favorite book? And this could be a fiction or nonfiction book.

Johanna Lyman:
That is such a hard question for someone like me who reads an average of at least two or three books a week. But I will say that probably the book that most impacted me was Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Career Nation:
Oh, very cool. Oh, I can definitely draw some connection points there to Conscious Capitalism and, yeah, that’s awesome. How about a favorite quote? Do you have a favorite quote that you would like to put on your computer, on your wall or just like as a mental tattoo?

Johanna Lyman:
Yes. I actually had one that was on my wall for 10 years before I figured out what it really meant. “I’ve been absolutely terrified every day of my life, but I’ve never let it stop me from doing a single thing” by Georgia O’Keeffe.

Career Nation:
Powerful. I love that. And then also kind of relates to failure because yes, some of those things might result in failure, but that’s the way it is. Failure and obstacle is the way to move forward. On a different note, what is your favorite restaurant?

Johanna Lyman:
Oh, anything that can make me a good New England lobster roll.

Career Nation:
Ooh, nice.

Johanna Lyman:
There is actually a place in Burlingame, I think. I believe it’s called The New England Lobster Company. And I will take a drive up from San Jose on a pretty regular basis just to get my fix.

Career Nation:
Oh, that is so cool. I will check it out and put that in the show notes. Johanna, now that we know you a little bit more, we would love to figure out what’s sort of the secret sauce behind Johanna Lyman’s, career success. So here’s the part where we’re trying to understand what are your strategies and approaches towards your career? Do you have a morning routine? Do you prep yourself? What are some of the strategies that have really helped you become successful in your career?

Johanna Lyman:
Yeah, there’s a combination. Yes, I have a morning routine. Before I turn on my computer or open my phone, I have, like a devotional reading that I do and then a short meditation, a journal on a regular basis so that I can capture my own insights and my own learnings. And then I am a connector. So when I meet a new person, and I think you’re like this too, cause we were kind of going back and forth when we first met. When I first meet somebody, my first thought is, how can I help you? How can I help you get what you’re looking for? And I think that is not as rare now as it was when I first started in corporate. But it’s still somewhat unusual and all the go givers that I’ve ever met have all been successful. Have you read that book, The Go-Giver?

Career Nation:
I have not, but I read Adam Grant’s Give and Take. Similar topic, but I haven’t read The Go-Givers. That is a very interesting title because it’s different that’s not go getters, but go givers. I love that title.

Johanna Lyman:
It is just a parable. It’s just a really short read. I forget who the author is, but…

Career Nation:
Awesome. Johanna, as you help companies through NextGen Orgs and through Conscious Capitalism, there might be many important projects, meetings. Tell us, how do you prepare for a big meeting or prepare for a big project? What sort of preparedness and sort of how do you help your stakeholders, your clients become successful? What sort of preparedness and what mechanisms do you use that you would like to share with Career Nation?

Johanna Lyman:
So to prepare for like a big meeting or a big team delivery, something like that, I take my morning practice and I double it. And the other thing that I do, to be honest with you is I know that when I can tap into the wisdom in the room, I have the ability to – it’s kind of a strange and unique gift, I love it – to tune into any organism, whether it’s an individual or team or an entire organization. And I can sort of, in a way, it’s hard to describe, but I can see what wants to emerge and I can see the highest potential that’s in the room in front of me. And so when I can tune into that and just let myself be guided to speak to what I can see. Pretty magical stuff happens.

Career Nation:
That is super magical. And that is almost like you are, you’re sensing the room, you’re sensing the people, you’re sensing the individuals. Are there any cues that you look for? Is this like body language or do you see like people are bringing up certain topics, so tell us a little bit more. Give us a clue into your super powers.

Johanna Lyman:
Yeah, so I think, I am highly intuitive, so there’s that. But I think, cause I’ve been trying to unpack this for myself for about 10 years. Like how do I do that thing? I think I am really good at pattern matching and it happens so fast that it occurs as intuition, but really I’m just, I’m paying attention to tiny little cues. It might be how someone looks at another person in the room and body language for sure is part of it. And just like, just having a sense of the energy in the room and being able to speak to that.

Career Nation:
That is fascinating. I would love to develop something like that. Although you are like, several, several levels, higher in terms of pattern matching and sensing this. Is there a way someone like me who’s a novice and let’s say understanding patterns, et cetera, develop this like is this like a having a lot of different types of experiences and then trying to figure out patterns because I played a bit bit, for example, mental models and I’ve tried to figure out, okay, is this situation, can I apply this type of a mental model? Like for example, the parade or rule 80, 20, for example. Right? So things like that. So those mental models. But I’d love to understand a little bit more about pattern matching and it seems like to match patterns first I should know patterns and identify patterns. So tell us a little bit more. What’s sort of behind is, what’s sort of the method to the madness, if you will?

Johanna Lyman:
Oh, so… I think the secret is presence. So the more present you are, the more emotionally intelligent you are, the more you have positive mindsets, I think the better you’ll get at this kind of rapid, fast pattern matching.

Career Nation:
Yeah. And so the presence aspect is so important. And in a world where we are overloaded with our digital signals emanating from all these devices, how does one develop presence? Is there a, it sounds like a quality that is, you have some stillness at the same time you are actively engaged. And so how have you experienced that presence? Whether it’s your presence that you have developed over a period of time you’ve seen others exhibit and demonstrate presence?

Johanna Lyman:
Yeah. first of all, it’s learnable. Everything is figureoutable, right? It really has to do with developing emotional intelligence. So developing your self awareness first and foremost. So that’s why I start my mornings the way I do. To have those moments of silence and connecting with myself. And then once you’ve got a good handle on the self-awareness, then you can get into like self management and then social awareness and relationship management. So those are the four aspects of emotional intelligence. So, it’s really just like how you get to Carnegie hall practice, practice, practice.

Career Nation:
Yeah. That’s a great, and overnight success has been 20 years in the making as they say.

Johanna Lyman:
Oh yeah, for sure. 16 years and counting for me.

Career Nation:
That is awesome. Johanna this has been a phenomenal conversation and as we start to wrap up here what would you like to share with Career Nation? And we have an audience that is sort of early in career, in the middle of their career, or late in career across. So we have got a broad spectrum of audience. What would you like to share with them in terms of guidance and insights based on your experiences?

Johanna Lyman:
The number one indicator of success is the degree of self awareness and emotional intelligence a person has. Now 85% of people think they’re emotionally intelligent and only 10-15% actually are. So it’s never too early to become more self aware. It’s also never too late.

Career Nation:
I love it. And I think one of the distinctions there also, Johanna, is the sort of ‘the know it all’ versus ‘the learn it all’. And so it sounds like 85% of people think that they’re emotionally intelligent and actually only 15% are. That’s a stark difference between the know it all and the learn it all right there.

Johanna Lyman:
Right. And I think, you know, humility is such a misunderstood and important quality in leaders. And that’s the idea that I’m not better than anyone, but I’m also not worse than anyone. So it’s, you know, treating everyone with respect.

Career Nation:
You’re so right. And that’s the, that’s the least thing anybody can do for anyone else – be kind, be respectful. And it doesn’t matter, even if you’re, working intensely in a startup or in a large tech company or anywhere else, it doesn’t matter. But treating others the way, they should be treated is so important. Johanna, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. We got so much out of it. Thank you for your time. And also we wish you all the very best for NextGen Orgs and for Conscious Capitalism.

Johanna Lyman:
Thank you. Thank you. And folks can find me on LinkedIn. It is Johanna Lyman. I come up pretty fast. And also if you’re curious, check out ccbayarea.org for conscious capitalism. We have online and in person events and, NextGenOrgs.com is my website.

Career Nation:
Wonderful. Johanna, thank you so much.

Johanna Lyman:
My pleasure, Abhijeet. All right. Take good care.